Curse

Lt.Crumpet · Jan 22, 2007, 03:09 AM // 03:09

the first big blows to the PvE community, IMO, was npc traders and greens. those alone eliminated half the market, and in turn hurt the community. things just became too easy to attain. easy -> lazy -> reclusivness.

zara · Jan 22, 2007, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chet Ingram Kabak

====
The Fellowship is Broken
====

Probably one of the biggest things that first drew me to Guild Wars, was the concept of Teamwork. After playing in the WPE, I was amazed that a game finally catered to what I felt made a good RPG game: Comraderie. You not only adventured with other people because you liked to...but because you HAD TO. It was required to survive. It was necessary to advance.

Now, with the introduction of Heros, this feeling of Comraderie has all but disintegrated in Guild Wars. I am not saying Heros are a bad idea. Quite the opposite. Sometimes a person does want to be by themselves. HOWEVER, I think the way they were implimented has caused repercussions in the game that were grave, to say the least.

During the preview of Nightfall, I witnessed something I NEVER saw in Guild Wars until that day.

An entire town of people, all with (4) above their heads...and the public chat was absolutely silent. A full Mission district, with no one talking at all? I could not believe it. I thought I had hit some kind of surreal moment in time, where everyone in the district was AFK at the same time. But people were moving. Running here and there to merchants and such, so they couldnt be AFK.

I did the only natural thing (At least it used to be)....I advertized for a group. I did this about once every minute or two...with my own advertizement being the only discussion in the room at all.

It took several minutes before someone responded. When they did, it sent shockwaves through me. They responded by telling me to "stop spamming, and just use Heros/Henchmen. That's what they're for." I not only didnt find a group...nor saw anyone talking to each other...but was actually RIDICULED when I wanted to find another person to do the mission with.

Wow, to speak the truth. I myself had a simlilar situation arise today trying to do the Pogahn Passage mission. I advertised for a group and someone told me to stop and use hero/hench...after a while made a group of all people, had a blast too.

As a side note, I will gladly do missions with any group of all people and ill help with any mission, as long as it is ALL poeple (exception being the lame required hero).

griffinz · Jan 22, 2007, 06:01 AM // 06:01

I agree, and disagree.

I am a well balanced player, 400 + Balthazar Faction with 400 + Fame, a screenshot fanatic, a guild leader, one who loves cooperative play. My mesmer (main character), never 'joined' a group for anything in Prophecies, I made them, and I am proud to say it. I have went through all the aspects of guild wars, from the thrill of getting through the game with my first character, then running through the game with my second.

I have taken interest to taking many screenshots, of guild parties, random people, my friends list was filling in fast. When Factions came out, it was too short, the landscape wasn't too interesting. Echovold Forest has its uniqueness, but it is ugly in one way or another. Even the Manguama looked better, despite its' insects. Look at Dry Top, Majesty's Rest, those are awesome places. You can never find them in Factions. Although certain areas in Prophecies are quite pointless, they look nice.

In Nightfall, one experienced player with heroes can hench through the entire game, with Master's on each. the Party Search panel wasn't very efficient either, I can't see it being used, and social in GW is awful. I can never form a proper group now without spending 1 hour at least. Nowadays, I rely on guildies and friends. I havn't led a group in ages, the last time I properlly formed a group fast was in Deldrimor War Camp to beat the last quest in Sorrow's Furnance.

Green Items, interesting, costly, alters the game economy, gold items, worth more, reasonable. Chest runs, easy way to get gold items which are 'worth more', resonable if random (which they altered), but otherwise stupid. Inscriptions, insignias, great ideas for PvP. Rare skin weapons for nightfall, great! An near impossible to get Dwarven Axe, Serpant Axe, Crystalline Sword, great, gives an ambition. But they all dropped in prices now, overfarmed, farming bots, those are not nice.

Elite Missions, The Deep, Urgoz Warren, Fissure of Woe, The Underworld, loved it. I loved how some of them requires Vent, lots of teammwork, I love the 'four chamber' idea in the deep. It is a great thing for PvP players playing PvE. A challenge, but Domain of Anguish... disappointing, it is just like another farm area... what's worse? little socializing, I rarely see anyone advertising.. although the Deep is so limited in people, there are still advertising everywhere, but guild wars lacks social.

PvP side? About the Hereoes Ascent Weekend, I like it, more ways to win, HoH looks fun, Alter matches, kill count, it's nice. What happened to king of the hill though? I still say they shoudln't totally remove it, everything had their flaws, like for kill count (ppl stealing kills), but that's for players to sort out. I enjoy interrupting the ghostly hero. 6 vs 6? Not a bad idea.. it kind of encourages team arenas players to come do HA a bit. 8 vs 8? I do miss the tombs days, where a balanced group can defeat IWAY... 8 vs 8 is not bad, I do miss it, but 6 vs 6 is good too? How can we have both? introduce more ways to pvp, GvG has always been great, but we need more.

PvE vs PvP? Yes, the updates are kind of putting PvE players to the last, when a big update or a test weekend comes out, really, I think they should include both the Pve and the pvp side...

Double Xp with skill capture? I loved it, helped my survivor, triple key drop, triple chest running? Good concept, but the idea mite not be so good, cocnering economy. Double faction this, double faction that? Great ideas, helps new PvP players get faction. Double Fame? BAD BAD BAD idea... new pvp players are already discriminated enough, now they do a double fame, all the fame farmers and new people start mass farming with Vimway etc.... it is just awful... it didn't help any other than move rank requirements up a tier. From r3+ teams, it just became r6+ teams...

Overall, I think Guild Wars is still a good game. Summing up, more styles of PvP, more 'hidden beauties' or 'obviously beauties' of the game for PvE players to enjoy, (Pre Searing is awesome), even the desert, it shoudln't be so dull, more cactus maybe? The cracks in Marga coast isn't so bad, and the monsters should be prettier

. Of course, more styles of PvE too, more socializing, less farming as in 'farming'. 6 man farming is okay, 2 man farming, 1 man, I don't like it at all.

Rieselle · Jan 22, 2007, 06:27 AM // 06:27

GW has been getting better and better with each chapter. However, I spent most of my 1000 or so hours in the first six months after the release of Prophecies.

Let's face it, YOU GET TIRED OF PLAYING THE SAME GAME FOR SO LONG.

I don't think it's surprising that many old-time players are losing interest. The only games that can hold people's interest for many years are PvP games, because they offer constant challenges, improvements in player skill, etc, and MMO-style grindy games, because of the strange addictive effects of watching numbers go up.

GW PvE doesnt really have much of an acquisitive side. The reason people complain about items being expensive, is because they're really not much better than collector items anyway. "Why should I spend 100k just for looks?"

This is both a strength of GW, and its downfall.

Sadly, GW is about skillful battles. There's no place you can go and explore without wading through a hundred enemies. However, with no RPG-like character development, it just becomes an action game, a beat-em up.

But, whereas the fighting in beatem-ups are skillful and exciting, with lots of things to try like various combos, special attacks, and impressive bosses to fight, GW has none of that. PvE has very little to encourage skillful play.

Theoretically the drop system should encourage you to play with as small a party as possible, thus challenging yourself for greater rewards, since items don't really matter, then people dont care. They just want to plough through as easily and quickly as they can.

unienaule · Jan 22, 2007, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Moved to Riverside because this thread ISN'T ABOUT THE TEST WEEKEND.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Jan 22, 2007, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Goonter's post was most excellent.

As I referenced in an earlier post in this thread, there are certain trends in the Guild Wars campaigns that are going against some of the core things that make a game thrive. By "thrive", I mean retain players and/or grow.

Quote:

The more a game fulfilled a player's sense of independence, achievement and connectedness to others, the more likely he or she was to keep playing.

-source

In Guild Wars PvE, the independence factor works well up to a point. But, generally there will be a need to rely on other players as you start into end-game. Nothing shocking about this, it's entirely expected.

However, the achievement portion is where Guild Wars loses some ground. Title seekers aside, there are not many other ways to distinguish yourself. Really, the limitation of achievement is more on being able to have it recognized in any way. The game provides a very limited stage on which to strut. Great deeds occur in instanced zones with little or no player involvement other than one's self. The world is divided up into fragmented society. A few major hubs of some social activity, but not enough to reach a critical mass.

This in turn impacts the chance of feeling any "connectedness" to others that you can get from the game. If you are fortunate to be playing with real life friends or have very strong guilds ties, then the connectedness may be there for you to some degree. But, many players will start a game to seek that way of connecting and may not find it in Guild Wars.

Guild Wars has a social problem. It has its player base spread out through 3 not very easily connected "worlds'. The players are further split by instanced zones and districts. Additionally, Mission progression and the introduction of Heroes and Henchies to the mix create a situation that's ripe for the shunning of PuG's.

If I can run a Mission successfully solo with Heroes/Henchies, why should I bother involving myself with other players? They'd only complicate things... See, this would play into the achievement part of the game. Personal achievement.

Unless in a strong guild, or among friends, other players are just fleeting and ephemeral avatars that you seldom have any need to interact with or rely upon. The bulk of social interaction is manifested in hawking of wares in trade channels or smack talk.

I feel that ANet should start reversing the trends that are fragmenting the game. In importance, this fragmentation problem transcends issues of skill balances, PvE and PvP,etc. because with out a stable and dynamic social underpinning the game will stop being a dynamic experience.

Columbo · Jan 22, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54

To the origional poster of this thread "Chet Ingram Kabak".

My Friend you could not have said what you said any better I totally agree with you up to the whole Faction's problem . However the strange thing is I must say that I love Nightfall all of it and it renewed my love for this game. Saying that it did until the introduction of the new DOA "elite mission" which IMO is just a bunch of BS with rediculous difficulty and "Elite" player Descrimination of character classes. But on the whole element of the game and the way it has become you are IMO completely correct. It is about time A-net realised who pay's their wages and listened to those people before they decide to stop doing so.

/Signed A-net pull your finger out and make PVE right for the first time since Tyria PLEASE!!!!!!.

Omega X · Jan 22, 2007, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chet Ingram Kabak

This is precisely the mentality everyone now has toward PUGs. This is NOT how GW started. Guild Wars used to be about HELPING your fellow players, teaching them how to get better, and adventuring through the game together.
Now, with Heros, no one bothers to help others, only themselves. If their group is not satisfactory, they have no need to help those other people get better...they just dump that person, and get a Hero. That does not make better players, it replaces players with computers, and cheapens the game for everyone.

IT doesn't matter how GW started. People have that mentality towards PuGs now because they have learned from experience not to trust them with important tasks anymore. The fool me once/twice/three times motto does apply.

This wasn't some fluke introduced with heroes. Heroes were created for the SOLE purpose of satisfying a growing base of people choosing the AI over a person for a number of reasons. A couple of those reasons were bad attitudes, the willingness NOT to participate as a team, and complete stupidity(not the inexperienced, those who act an ass). Other reasons was for the fact that there was never anyone there when you needed them and normal Henches didn't cut it, or for the fact that you just wanted to solo when you wanted to.

Quote:

I currently have 9 characters. I could easily keep myself occupied doing the same missions, but with a completely different style of playing, using a different character. I did so with all of my characters in Tyria. But, I cannot bring myself to take my many secondary characters to different chapters. Why? The content in the second and third chapter, the parts that I do not like, are PROHIBITIVE to me caring to play them. I simply cannot be motivated by the substandard content of Kaineng City, to bother with doing factons. If I could bypass the city, and go to Echovald and Jade Sea, or Vabbi, or Realm of Torment...I would love to take those characters there! I cannot do that, without going through all areas that disgust me, so I don't bother. Nightfall is even worse than Factions. I am so disgusted by the endless deserts and vomit-inducing manditory middle-missions, that I have no stomach to continue to Elona with my other characters.

I personally blame that on the fact that ANET is trying to bleed more PvP elements into PvE. To be fair to Factions, there wasn't that many PvP style missions in Chapter 2. Though the quests had you do a lot of backtracking in order to move you forward. Hell, there was only two of these types of missions in Prophecies. BUT, in Nightfall I can count atleast 5 of these kinds of missions and they most of them are towards the second half of the game. Which is where the game usually sours for me. Though, things pick up again in the Desolation(I personally like worm country). But when your get to the Realm of Torment, the sour taste returns. Though not necessarily because of the missions.

King Kong · Jan 22, 2007, 10:02 AM // 10:02

I think the next chapter will shift more towards PvE, that's where most of ANET player base is. And they have got to keep the PvE's happy, for them to stay a float themselves! They "may" want everyone to do pvp, but they got to think about the profits at the end of the day

Kryth · Jan 22, 2007, 10:42 AM // 10:42

I agree with you on this: PVE MUST be deeper.

For a complete character that has finished all campaigns, (which really doesn't take so long) bought armors he wanted and bought the skills he wanted, PvE is just hollow. And please don't tell me that's what PvE is all about. It should contain more than repeatable dungeons with high end drops. They should be there too, but that alone just won't cut it.

Ch4 needs to adress this imo.

Cebe · Jan 22, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Well I sympathise with you (the OP) on a number of points there. Although my first game was Factions. I actually like Factions, including Kaineng City...I like the low, gentle, comforting hum when you're walking around...and at least devourer's don't pop out of the ground every few seconds like Tyria. I bought Tyria soon after...only for the skill Chain Lightning originally, but then started playing it and found myself really enojoying it (with the exception of Ascalon). If you find Kaineng City disgusting...what about Ascalon? I've just started my first every Tyrian character and braved the journey from pre to post searing and I just want to get to the Northern Shiverpeaks as quickly as possible...I'm just "grinding" quests in Ascalon to try to help me level up, which is also miserably slow.

I agree with the OP on Kourna...although I wasn't a fan of Istan myself...Kourna is horrible. But it's not just the sand and dirt everywhere, it's the mobs. They run at you from a great distance...then the priests make it as hard as possible for you to kill them. They run from warriors/dervishes and spam reversal of fortune whenever possible. My brother, i feel, is with you on Elona...he hates it. I'm trying to push him on a bit...but he doesn't even seem to have the will to take his monk, his all time favourite character, through Elona. Personally I find Vabbi a wonderful place. Yes, it's still sandy, but it's "nice" sand. What consitutes "nice" sand? Well...not like Kourna which is red and dirty...also not like the Crystal Desert where every few steps you take you come across ANOTHER devourer or plague of scarabs. Yuck. I find Vabbi to be a refreshingly different desert and throughly enjoyed exploring it for GMC. I particularly like the "explorable towns"...like those around the Resplendent Makuun and Kodash Bazaar...

As for Chapter 4, I truly hope we get more snow. I like snow. It's something Cantha and Elona are lacking. In Cantha on Shing Jea I guess y ou get snowy mountains but it doesn't actually snow like it does in the Shiverpeaks. I find that to be a nice touch.

Onto the hench and heroes debate...this has been had many times. I, personally, woudl prefer to use PuGs because when you find a good one, it's fantastic. More often than not they're all idiots...and I feel compelled to use my heroes, who at least don't claim to be a healing monk then start casting Retribution and Bane Signet! The early days of Elona were very enjoyable. I took my ele through reasonably quick and further through the game at that time you would get a fair few people who were good at playing and were enjoyable to spend time in a PuG with...while the morons who couldn't figure out a way to kill the drought were stilll left in smelly Kourna.

Cacheelma · Jan 22, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Can people just post what they *personally* think without dragging some random people into it with "Most players I know", "Most long-time players", "Most veterans I spoke to in Ascalon, Lion's Arch etc etc"?

Leave them alone. It doesn't make your opinion any stronger. If anything, it's a bit lamer with it.

Sharn-Mes · Jan 22, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

Can people just post what they *personally* think without dragging some random people into it with "Most players I know", "Most long-time players", "Most veterans I spoke to in Ascalon, Lion's Arch etc etc"?

Leave them alone. It doesn't make your opinion any stronger. If anything, it's a bit lamer with it.

Well said...

Personally (

) I think this thread is a waste of valuable space...

wilebill · Jan 22, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Chet, I've been playing since retail release of Prophecies and I am primarily PvE. I understand your concerns in this post, though I don't think that GW is "down the tubes" yet.

Looking back to my initial character in Prophecy, a Ranger, I think that nothing at all can ever compare to leveling him up through the game. Each map was a fresh and new experience. And in those days of the initial release, the PvE was quite a bit more challenging.

I think that a part of the problem that you have with the PvE experience in Factions and Nightfall has been that ANet has been building maps with environments generated by algorithms in these two expansions to save a bit of money and keep them affordable. The splendor of Prophecies will never be repeated because now it would simply be too expensive to do it "all by hand" for a mere chapter release.

The real problem with the PvE game, as I see it, arises from a basic flaw in the game concept, which is that PvE character skills should function like PvP skills, and that there should be no difference between a PvP character and a PvE character. Since the two sets of environments are usually isolated from each other, I never really understood the reason for this game design feature.

That being said, GW is still a great game which ought to be and could be even greater. I do not think that everyone is going to dash off to some other game and forget GW. Certainly not me!

On the positive side, I think you ought to notice that ANet has added a host of new features for PvE players in Nightfall, and that ANet is showing a new concern for the PvE player experience. I think myself that GW ANet will overcome such problems as exist and that the game will only get better.

Loviatar · Jan 22, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

The real problem with the PvE game, as I see it, arises from a basic flaw in the game concept, which is that PvE character skills should function like PvP skills, and that there should be no difference between a PvP character and a PvE character. Since the two sets of environments are usually isolated from each other, I never really understood the reason for this game design feature.

.

and that is where you are wrong.

the game engine can support one and only one build at a time.

that means that SF cannot have two values

1 a balanced value for PVP

2 an ungodley high unbalanced value for hardcore farmers

the people who play the game for fun dont seem to mind these changes that much.

most of the loudest protests are from farmers not players

one build one value for a given skill

Torikae · Jan 22, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

I agree in part - The one thing I've come to miss most (especially since the release of NF) is the ability to PUG.
I KNOW not everyone likes to PUG, and I KNOW that it usually just makes things more difficult, and that you sometimes hit upon a disastrous team, or a couple of idiots, or whatever.
But you know what, I still like it! For all the times it's a trial, it can also be FUN. And I miss the times when it was easy to do. Just to pick up a group and do a mission. Even a quest! Who PUGs for quests these days??
I like Heroes - even Henchies - I won't deny that. I like playing with team builds, and I like that I CAN run a mission on my own when I log on at 4am and nobody else is about to team with me.
But I miss being able to PUG freely also. Now the variety of teammates has dwindled, running my characters through the same missions has become a chore.

Okay, that's my complaining over with, and I feel better for it.

And overall, despite my personal gripes, I think we can't live in the past. So Guild Wars is different now. Some things have deteriorated in some people's opinions. But other things have improved.

As for your complaints as to the environment: I see where you're coming from (I'm not a fan of the NF vista), but I don't think it's a good thing to generalise. I, for one, am a lover of Factions - even those horrible grimy hours spent in Kaineng City. I know I'm in the minority, but that's fine. Just don't generalise - Not all us long-time players are as utterly discontent with the new chapters as you seem to be.

And I don't care that half the community is running about in 15k armour these days. Even ignoring the direction the market's taken, the game's been out longer - More players will be able to afford it. You can't always be the only one. I don't feel any less accomplished these days when I earn a new set of 15k armour than when I bought my first one.

Times change. Gotta roll with them, and all that.

Chet Ingram Kabak · Jan 22, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Thank you all for posting.

Most of you, whether you agree or disagree, are participating in precisely the kind of intelligent discussion that Arena-Net needs to see. I realize wholeheartedly that some people may not agree. If everyone agreed with me, the game would not be in the state it is in today. Therefore, those of us that DO NOT like what is becoming of it, need to let Arena-Net know.

I should address a couple points brought up by responders to my post.

1. I purposefully avoided making my own recommendations on how to fix the problems in the game, to avoid dictating my own views to the community. Sure, I have ideas, and I think we should focus on discussing them.

THIS is why I did not want people who disagree, to post here. Rather than being an "us vs them" thread (as it has now become), I want to see SUGGESTIONS and IDEAS on fixing what we do not like about the game...and for that, there must be a form of consensus among the posters here.

Do not mistake my motives for making that request.

2. There are reasons why I targeted this post toward players from the betas. Quite simply, those of you who did not play in the betas, would not understand. Those of you who have, know precisely what I mean when I say this game was built around teamwork and comradeship. It sounds utopian, but during those beta tests, 95% of the individuals I encountered were genuinely great people. We played the game, adventured, quested, and had a blast. We would go through 'withdrawl' until the next Beta event, because the experience was so rewarding. This is not dramatized. It really was THAT good. It looked good. It felt good. It played well. It was exciting! To finally be part of a good team....THAT was the essence of Guild Wars!

Now, of course, there are always going to be nasty people. The only way to deal with that, is to not game with them. I have become expert at finding and weeding out 'bad apples' in my group, before we even begin.

As I said in my original post, I do not blame Arena-Net for the fact that many players are unseemly and undesirable to have in a group. This is not their fault, any large game will have them. I DO blame Arena-Net for allowing and encouraging an environment where those players that want to find groups. It just seems their latest efforts have been counterproductive to this end...which is very atypical of Arena-Net.

3. Things that go wrong, and what could improve them? I might as well delve into this.

I personally feel that the introduction of the Party Search screen would have been a fine addition, but they chose to release it after the advent of Heros, which seemed very counterproductive to me. There is no need to search for parties anymore, since there are very few parties to search through, in a given district. It's a great idea...just bad implementation and timing.

I personally believe that if they had implemented JUST the Party Search, without heros...the guild wars community would be doing much better right now.

I also think making Heros available ONLY in explorable areas would be a good balance and compromise. You could solo with them all you like, with the reduced drop rate and all. YES, you would have to rely on your fellow players to advance in the game. Necessity is the mother of invention. Hardship is the father of Evolution. If you must rely on your fellow man (or woman) to advance, you are more motivated to work with them, rather than against them. You become stronger in the process. If you dont want to go with people, there are always Henchmen. People did missions with Henchmen before. They can do it again. If you aren't patient enough to play with other players...you should not play Guild Wars in the first place. Go play KOTOR.

I do blame Arena-Net for not coming up with features that would greatly benefit the economy. For years we have asked for a better way to sell our items to other players, rather than screaming in public chat. They have not yet provided any means of doing so. The Guru auction house is a good start, but is not an In-game solution, therefore a large portion of people will simply not use it. An in-game auction house, IMO, would stabilize the economy of the game to a great extent. It would provide a uniform reference for all players to know what items are truly worth, and also provide a means of selling and buying them easily. There would be an added bonus: The game mechanics would then offer a natural buffer against superpriced (100K+XX Ecto) items. These could still be bought and sold as they are now...in chat. This would satisfy the hard core traders out there...while providing the casual gamer a chance to both make money and aquire the items he wants, without having to become an expert on GW economy just to avoid getting scammed.

I totally agree with previous posters about Arena-Net's failed attempts to curb Chinese Gold Farming. The Farmers will find a way around your attempts to nerf farming...and in the process, you also hurt the very people you are trying to protect. There are very simple solutions to this problem.

How about a gold transfer cap per 24 hrs? 100k? 200k? Think about it! From one account to another, you could only trasfer up to 100k per every 24 hours. Gold Farmer accounts would not be able to service more than 1 customer per day, requiring MANY accounts to work...so many it becomes economically infeasible to farm gold for the low prices people will pay for GW Gold. People who want to transfer high value items can do so in the form of Ecto, which is significantly harder to get. This makes the value of the money go up, prices go down, the average player remains largely unaffected and the Chinese Farmers are the real losers.

These are all I can think of at the moment. More may come to me later on.

EDIT: Further clarification on my idea of gold transfer.

Gold transfer would be limited to the giving of gold only...not receiving. If the farmer cant give out more than 100k per day, then that means they'd need 10's, maybe 100's of accounts to hand out the volume of gold they deal with. You could receive as much as you want, since you may have really good items you want to sell. Larger purchases would have to be done through the Auction house, for any form of payment (Gold+ecto/items, maybe?). This lets ArenaNet track transactions and nail high-volume farmers easily.

P.S:

Quote:

Chet, I've been playing since retail release of Prophecies and I am primarily PvE. I understand your concerns in this post, though I don't think that GW is "down the tubes" yet.

I agree with you. If I thought it was down the tubes, I'd have stopped playing it. It still has great potential, and I look forward to positive additions and changes to the game. Arena-Net DOES listen to it's players...so that is why this post is here. For them to see what some of their patrons want.

Kakumei · Jan 23, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chet Ingram Kabak

If you aren't patient enough to play with other players...you should not play Guild Wars in the first place. Go play KOTOR.

Hahaha what? Not only is KOTOR an awful, awful game, it's absolutely nothing like GW.

So what you're saying is because, a majority of the time, I want to play with no one other than my guildies or the AI, I'm supposed to "go play KOTOR".

Because PUGs will wait around for me if I have to go AFK frequently--which is common.

Because PUGs want to go cap every single skill in order.

Because PUGs want to hug every single wall in an area.

Because PUGs will bring exactly the skills needed, and use them at the right time.

Heroes are by far the best feature of Nightfall, no questions asked.

Chet Ingram Kabak · Jan 23, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Kakumei,

These are precisely the attitudes that drives this discussion. As I said, this is not an "us vs them" conversation. As for your comments about PUGs (assuming I understand your comments, since they are somewhat uncoordinated and confusing), I agree...many are less than ideal. HOWEVER...This is not a game where the "me" attitude is, was, or should be the focus. This is a "we" game, not a "me" game. It is about teamwork. As far as going with your guildmates....GOOD! That is why it's called Guild Wars in the first place! Not "Hero Wars". Not "Hench Wars". Guild Wars.

As for my assessment of this game...You do not agree with me. That is fine. You are entitled to your opinon, the same as anyone else. However, please add to the discussion by presenting your ideas and things you would like to see modified, removed, kept, or changed within the game. Please also provide supporting arguments for your comments.

To Everyone,

From here on, I wish to remain in the spirit of this conversation. Constructive criticism of the game, with ideas and discussion on how to make it better. If you do not have valuable content and substance to add, please refrain from comment.

Thank you.

P.S.

Quote:

Hahaha what? Not only is KOTOR an awful, awful game, it's absolutely nothing like GW.

I disagree. I thoroughly loved the game. It is not like Guild Wars, and that was my entire point. It is single-player, requiring no personal interaction with anyone. BUT...That is not the point of this discussion, nor will I mention it, or respond to anything else relating to it, again.

Kakumei · Jan 23, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chet Ingram Kabak

Kakumei,

These are precisely the attitudes that drives this discussion. As I said, this is not an "us vs them" conversation. You do not agree with me. That is fine. Please add to the discussion by presenting your ideas and things you would like to see modified, removed, kept, or changed within the game. Please also provide supporting arguments for your comments.

Oh wow.

You evidently didn't read my post at all. I don't think anything really needs to be changed at all in this specific regard--groups are there for those who want them, and Heroes are there for those who want them.

What's the problem? That having the option of Heroes "discourages teamwork"? Something tells me you don't want those people in your party anyway--we like to just get things done.